I, uh…
I made the mistake of watching a PBS Special titled “Mormons.”
Um…yeah.
Loralee, you may not want to read the rest of this post because it might just make you angry.
But, can I just say…
EXCUSE ME?
I was watching this special, and I was fine until they got to the topic of Baptism for the Dead.
I’ve heard about this concept before. Apparently, I never understood it.
It was my understanding that family members of Mormons who had never joined the church, or excommunicated members, or those who had not heard the “message of salvation” could somehow achieve that salvation by being baptized after death.
A morbid thought, to be sure, but the idea is, they will essentially re-baptize members in the name of an unsaved “heathen.”
Yeah, well, they apparently go a little further than that.
In Salt Lake City, there is a series of tunnels, tombs, bunkers, whatever you want to call it, where the names of 7 BILLION dead are housed.
This place is so secure that supposedly not even a direct hit from an atomic bomb can destroy it.
These names are regularly researched to determine which of these dead would be eligible for baptism after death so they can achieve salvation.
EXCUSE ME?
At one point, the Mormon church took it upon themselves to “baptize” all the dead Jews who had been lost in the Holocaust.
They interviewed a Holocaust survivor who was both outraged and shocked by these actions. These people the Mormons were baptizing were JEWS…not Gentiles, not Mormons…they were Jews. They were of the Jewish faith, they were of the Jewish culture, part of their being was wrapped up in being Jewish. Not Mormon…Jewish. How could any “religion” take it upon themselves to take away the ultimate identity of someone just so they might achieve salvation after death?
This INFURIATED me. How DARE they? Of course the Jewish people should be outraged, I would be. (The baptisms were later reversed due to an outcry from the Jewish people, but still.)
Well, imagine how much MORE shocked I was to realize that the names of these 7 BILLION dead were at the mercy of these Mormons to be recommended for a baptism into the Mormon faith.
So, pretty much, my grandmother, my grandfather, could very well have been baptized after death to achieve “salvation” as a MORMON?
NO. How do you take away someone’s religion, their faith, part of their identity, after death, just so you can win some more converts to your pathetic cult?
Now, I don’t believe that anyone who has been baptized after death by the Mormon church achieves “salvation” as a Mormon after death. I’m pretty darn certain of that. But who are you, Oh-Mighty-Mormons, to play GOD as you do?
You are not God. You do not determine salvation for people. You do not rob them of their identity or their faith.
WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?!
I am outraged.
I think the most disgusting thing is that so many Mormons parade around as angels of righteousness and light, and yet, under all that “niceness” there’s a certain level of viciousness and deceit. And I’ve seen it, and I don’t like it.
7 Comments
February 13, 2008 at 4:49 am
Try getting an answer when you ask them if their religion believes Lucifer (i.e. Satan) and Jesus were brothers. Or if we were spirit babies in heaven before we were born? Or if God is not really the ONLY God, just the God of this particular universe, AND you can be too. Oh wait a minute. Not you. You and I are women. We get the priviledge of being eternally pregnant, giving birth to other spirit babies of our husband/God’s universe.
Think I’ll pass.
February 13, 2008 at 4:52 am
I’m too angry to even comment.
February 13, 2008 at 4:55 am
I don’t know about this ‘Baptism of the Dead’ but it sounds like a meaningless, pointless exercise to anyone who is not Mormon or who does not believe that ppl can baptised after death.
Bizarre and clearly insensitive if the deceased and/or their family members have not given their permission for their loved ones names to be incorporated into such a ceremony.
It would be interesting to hear from someone who is/was Mormon if this practise is true? Was the doco valid? Did it back up its claims? I have very little faith in media these days, so much is made up for shock value so my questions are often….Who said? and How do they know?
February 13, 2008 at 1:17 pm
My mother’s cousin and his wife joined the Mormon church years ago. They came to visit once (they lived in California). They spent their three day visit extolling the virtues of the Mormon faith, turning down all beverages except milk, water, and lemonade… explaining their white ‘dedicated’ underclothing…acting superior to my parents…and making my parents feel so uncomfortable that they were glad when they left!
By the way, my parents LIVED their faith! They were always doing things to help others, living a quiet hard-working life, never hurting anyone. I was angry when they told me about this visit.
I like to be tolerant of others’ beliefs, but I don’t want them to shove their beliefs down my throat!
February 13, 2008 at 5:12 pm
Ok, so I volunteer to be the nasty token Mormon!
I write this in the hope of promoting understanding and communication. I really don’t want to get in a twist with anyone about doctrine, because, frankly, you’re all free to believe what you want and believe what you want about us.
Here is why we do what we do.
We take literally Jesus’ statement that except we are baptized we cannot enter the kingdom of God (John 3:5, if anyone is interested). So, what about the nice man who lived 1,000 years ago in China? If Jesus statement is right, where does he fit? We also take literally Peter’s statement that the gospel is preached to those who have died without opportunity to hear it. (1 Peter 4:6, again, if you’re interested, not to get into a “bible bash”)
The concept of baptism for the dead rests also on our belief that the soul of man is his body and his spirit and that all are created with the gift of moral agency or choice.
So, we believe that the gospel of Jesus Christ is preached to those who have gone on before and not had the opportunity to hear and act on it in this life. We also believe that the physical act of baptism is essential. How to resolve this dilemma??
In holy temples, the living go to a lovely and peaceful baptism font and perform the physical act of baptism for and in behalf of someone who has died. As living beings in the spirit world who continue to be endowed with moral agency, all such people have the choice to accept this vicarious work or not. That’s it.
We don’t count those people in our church records, we only note that the work has been done for that name, and that person can accept it or not.
Now, if we’re all whacked out and wrong, then no one has been harmed. No memory has been defamed, we’ve just wasted our own time. And even if we are right, no soul – not one, not ever – has the ordinance “shoved down their throats”.
And by the way, Mormons are just as susceptible to human frailty – including spiritual pride – as any other gaggle of fallan people. But most of us want to try to be better than we now are.
I hope this helps with every one’s concerns.
February 14, 2008 at 12:30 am
It was my understanding that family members of Mormons who had never joined the church, or excommunicated members, or those who had not heard the “message of salvation” could somehow achieve that salvation by being baptized after death.
According to Mormon theology, only people that did not have the opportunity in this life to accept the gospel of Christ (as seen by the LDS Church) will be able to accept a proxy baptism.
How could any “religion” take it upon themselves to take away the ultimate identity of someone just so they might achieve salvation after death?
The LDS faith is not taking away the identity of anyone. Properly understood, the baptism only takes affect if the person for who it is performed accepts it. So LDS members perform the baptism in hope that it will be accepted, but knowing that the ordinance will have no affect if those beyond the vail reject it don’t.
Of course the Jewish people should be outraged, I would be.
I don’t see why anyone should be upset. This would be like an atheist getting up set over a Christian praying for them. Why should they care? The Christian feels good for doing their duty and the Atheist can just view them as silly sheep and move on.
The baptism itself doesn’t change who they were and if you are a non-believer should really be just an oddity with little importance.
How do you take away someone’s religion, their faith, part of their identity, after death, just so you can win some more converts to your pathetic cult?
Your reference to Mormonism as a “pathetic cult” reveals that you probably had a bias toward them before you even saw the PBS special.
I think the most disgusting thing is that so many Mormons parade around as angels of righteousness and light, and yet, under all that “niceness” there’s a certain level of viciousness and deceit. And I’ve seen it, and I don’t like it.
I know many great members of the LDS faith. True some may be over zealous and down right self-righteous, but you will find that in any religion not just Mormonism. I can’t say that I’ve see any more “viciousness and deceit” among Mormons than anywhere else.
February 15, 2008 at 10:38 pm
I’d just like to say I’m glad I’m lutheran.
And glad that I’m not an icon worshipping greek, a guilty catholic, a corpse baptizing mormon, a multi-armed hindi, an orange wrapped buddhist, a flexy yogi, a confused taoist, a scimitar wielding muslim, a grass skirt wearing tribesman, a sacrificing pagan, or one of them crazy evangelicals.
Did I miss any one? If I did, I’m really sorry I didn’t insult your religion too. Let me know, and I’ll hook something up for you.
In the meantimes, I’m going to go make some bizarre lutheran jello salad with cucumbers and onions, and drink some weak coffee.
Let me tell you, no one can do sanctimonious like a sarcastic lutheran.